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| some pointers on the 1916 armoured lorry; guinness armoured lorry | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 24 2016, 06:04 PM (5,221 Views) | |
| dave b | Jan 24 2016, 06:04 PM Post #1 |
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Probably have this thread in the wrong place , For those who may be considering doing a scratch build 1916 armoured lorry. Just some basic information on the Guinness armoured lorrys that may get you started, shorten you research time and save you some eye squinting over faded Black and white images of armoured lorrys, which probably turns out to be a 1928 Greek armoured lorry that someone on the internet claimed was Dublin 1916. Unfortunately I have no fine details or exact measurements. At the start of the rising the British army took in charge a large amount of civilian vehicles of all types (among them, Guinness lorrys). All information indicates that there were Five lorrys armoured, all Five were Guinness flatbed Daimler Y type lorrys, with the work been done at the workshop of the Great Southern & Western Railway in Inchicore Dublin, with some suggestion of at least one may have been built at Guinness using old boilers. There are period images of Five armoured lorrys, I will refer to these images as Lorry 1 – 5 and hopefully this may help you in your research and narrow your data gathering down to one lorry. Reported notes on what was used to construct them ? # Metal plates # Train locomotive smoke box’s (front section of a steam locomotive engine the has the chimney stack) # old boilers # Nuts & bolts # angle iron # Flatbed lorrys # black paint was used to add fake gun ports # Cab roof (canopy) are original road lorry, and not locomotive roof as previously thought # only door to the rear. There is no visually prove of any drivers separate door as previously thought In my opinion there is only one book (magazine) that may be of interest to you that gives details on how, when and where these armoured lorrys saw action. It give some details on how they were built plus eye witness accounts from troopers that were in them and mentions briefly other nun armoured vehicles used in the rising. This magazine will not build your model but will show you that these lorrys saw plenty of action in their brief life. ![]() ![]() Lorry one was constructed by using just Two smoke box's. ![]() ![]() Lorry Two & Three are almost identical with just some little differences in the position of the gun ports and different cab canopy and different canopy support bars. ![]() Lorry Four, If you study this One you will notice that the metal used on its construction is second hand ? possibly One or more containers or water tanks strapped together but study these images yourself. Nuts on the top angle iron would indicate an enclosed roof. Lorrys One to Four all appear to have the same type of protection around the engine bay and also appear to be the same colour. ![]() Admittedly a very poor quality image but a very different arrangement in the way this One was constructed and looks to be a different darker colour to the other armoured lorries, ![]() Scale plans by Denis J McCarty ![]() This is my own drawing of lorry Three,, I could find no reference as to the colour these Lorrys were painted in with the exception of an artist coloured oil painting the shows 1916 Dublin in flames with Two armoured Lorrys on O Connell street in a Grey colour. I have lots more images to ad but will wait as I am unsure if this topic is in the right section. |
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| ghengismccann | Jan 24 2016, 08:49 PM Post #2 |
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Dave, Nice work! this should be of great help anyone trying to build one of these. The blue wheels on your rendering are a nice touch.Why would they waste time and paint on the wheels. I wish it had occurred to me when I built mine. I hadn't realised that AFV News continued to be published into the 2000's I must update my collection. regards
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"....the old men shall cause themselves to be carried into the public squares, To excite the courage of the warriors, to preach the downfall of Kings, and announce the glories of the Republic" Convention of the Republic,Paris, Dec; 1793 | |
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| dave b | Jan 25 2016, 09:13 PM Post #3 |
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That AFV news may be a hard to find but they are around. I added the Blue & Beige colours myself as Guinness colours and not based on any facts. These lorrys were on loan and expected to be returned in good order. |
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| dave b | Jan 26 2016, 09:14 PM Post #4 |
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![]() Daimler lorry, NOTE THE CAR ROOF. |
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| dave b | Jan 26 2016, 09:33 PM Post #5 |
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Thought to be a 6th lorry but more than likely this is lorry 3 with some damage to the cab canopy -? |
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| ghengismccann | Jan 26 2016, 09:38 PM Post #6 |
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" I added the Blue & Beige colours myself as Guinness colours and not based on any facts. These lorrys were on loan and expected to be returned in good order." Still Dave a reasonable deduction. For those of a Temperance disposition ![]() A Mineral water/Lemonade truck. ![]() The bare bones of the thing. Dave that must be nearly every picture ever seen. This is becoming a valuable resource. regards
Edited by ghengismccann, Jan 26 2016, 09:40 PM.
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"....the old men shall cause themselves to be carried into the public squares, To excite the courage of the warriors, to preach the downfall of Kings, and announce the glories of the Republic" Convention of the Republic,Paris, Dec; 1793 | |
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| dave b | Jan 26 2016, 10:04 PM Post #7 |
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Excellent Paddy and hopefully more may decide to have a go at one of these lorrys.![]() This is just my own interpretation of lorry Five,, colour is just a guess. |
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| willkerrs | Apr 5 2016, 02:08 PM Post #8 |
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I wrote an article on this vehicle back in February, 2016, and managed to update it a lot since coming back from a trip to Dublin a few days ago. - http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww1/gb/Daimler_Guinness Any chance I can get some of those rarer photos without the watermarks? Full credits given, of course. Edit: It's a bit of a mess at the moment. I've got a lot of updating to do what with Caulfield's "The Easter Rebellion" giving some great accounts, and a friend of mine managed to find me his copy of that AFV news... Edit II: Okay, managed to get it together. I'm not going to say it's the best article out there, but it's certainly a more comprehensive account than the one in AFV news. And, apart from which, source citation, too. Now, does anyone know who bought Bertram Portal's diary? Wouldn't surprise me if the Guinness Brewery bought it and destroyed it to hide their collaboration... xD Edited by willkerrs, Apr 5 2016, 06:26 PM.
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| dave b | Apr 12 2016, 12:26 PM Post #9 |
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Excellent web page Willkerrs, love the illustrations I see you briefly mention the Armoured Lancia on your web page and include a image. you note that the location of this Armoured Lanica image is unknown. I attach a frontal view of the same Lancia, same location {{ junction of Dame street and Georges street Dublin, looking down at Trinity college. 13th September 1922 )). Can I just mention that, referring to the Armoured Lancia as a improvised armoured vehicle is probably not doing them justice, it is believed that around 150 were constructed. The RUC in 1922 definitely took over 54 possibly more,, Irish army 50 possibly more and the rest in British services outside of Ireland, although I have only ever seen them with RAF markings in the Middle east and not in British army markings. ![]() ![]() |
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| willkerrs | Apr 13 2016, 06:15 PM Post #10 |
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dave b, that's great information. I really appreciate that. You say that 150 were made? I only thought that a maximum of fifty were made at Inchicore, late 1922 - early 1923. I didn't know that they were serially produced. Were they produced in serial at other production lines? I suppose I was more or less thinking of the eight or so rail conversions, which were, in some respects, improvised. That would be the main focus, but if I can find good enough sources, I might just do the Armoured Lancias separate. Like I say on the comments section of the article, i'll be looking at the armoured lorries made in 1922/3, and i'd be doing that under the unofficial title of "Inchicore M1922/3 Armored Lorries" - purely because, to my knowledge, they weren't all Lancias that were armoured up and converted to fit on rails - Some were Peerless and Rolls Royces, at least according to this - http://railwayprotectionrepairandmainten.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/rpr.html Do you have any more information at all? Any pointers on sources? In other news - does anybody know what kind of suspension the Milnes-Daimler used? I'm having a 3d model of it made, and my friend needs to see clearer photos of the suspension, or similar, in order to model it accurately. The bare photo of the chassis was a great help, but we still need something better for the suspension. Thanks Edit: Yeah, I hadn't read things properly here. Ignore all this. Edited by willkerrs, Jul 29 2016, 05:11 PM.
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| BKirwan | Apr 13 2016, 06:42 PM Post #11 |
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Willkerrs I think you might be getting your wires crossed. The 150 Lancia’s were built for the British Army, presumably by Lancia in Italy. The connection with Inchicore was that some of the stock handed over to the National Army were modified for use on the railways. Dave will have a better breakdown of numbers than I but I think we are talking about 10-15 in total. Dave is also the author of the blog you referred to in your post. Apart form making great websites I don't suppose you do any modelling do you ? If so why don't you join the group build, its seriously undersubscribed. kind regards Brian Edited by BKirwan, Apr 13 2016, 08:19 PM.
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| Parkadge | Apr 13 2016, 08:48 PM Post #12 |
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I love this photo- any idea what caused the damage? Was it hit by a tram maybe?
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Pat McGrath Work to become not to acquire ![]() | |
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| BKirwan | Apr 13 2016, 09:40 PM Post #13 |
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quoting form a reply from Dave on Willkerrs article " that Armoured Lancia image is the junction of Dame street and Georges street Dublin, looking down at Trinity college. The Lancia was involved in an accident with a Ford car (also military) on the 13th September 1922" |
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| dave b | Apr 13 2016, 09:52 PM Post #14 |
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Not a great copy of the newspaper article but you can make it out .
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| BKirwan | Apr 13 2016, 10:04 PM Post #15 |
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Dave Where do you get this stuff from ? I men its a iny iny miny newspaper "article" thats nearly a 100 years old . Fair dues to you and thanks for sharing. |
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| willkerrs | Apr 14 2016, 11:58 AM Post #16 |
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Thanks for the clarification on the Lancias, BKirwan. I haven't even started looking into them properly, hence the mistake! I don't really do any modelling, at least, I haven't for a few years - and i'm not very good at all. How does this group build stuff work? I was planning on just having a friend of mine, who works with me on Tanks Encyclopedia, create a 3d model, and then I could print it out on something like Shapeways. We'd maybe try to sell the idea to the Imperial War Museum (in the UK), or maybe some of the Irish museums, like the Proclaiming a Republic exhibition at Collins Barracks, or the new GPO exhibition (both of which are well worth visiting, by the way). We'll see. Like I say, I really need to know what the suspension type was, or if anybody has clear photos of the Milnes Daimler suspension (or similar truck / suspension). That's the only real problem we have. We'd probably make the Daimler Guinness that I like to call Type 1b, or, as it's called on this thread, lorry 2. I think it's the most commonly photographed one. Anybody who wants to help out is more than welcome to help out. In fact, any help would be appreciated, with regards to fine details, etc. That technical drawing is excellent, but I think it misses out some details that can be seen in photos. Cross-referencing the design with photos should be fine, though. |
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| willkerrs | Apr 16 2016, 09:07 PM Post #17 |
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Small update - we've got the suspension sorted, by looking at Milnes Daimler 1907 buses, which appear closer to the chassis used on the Daimler-Guinness. The bare bones of the thing that ghengismccann posted actually looks too short, but was helpful, nevertheless. I'll let you know when it's done. |
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| willkerrs | Apr 18 2016, 11:09 AM Post #18 |
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Progress so far: https://www.facebook.com/arkhonus3d/photos/a.1704807836398680.1073741827.1704804046399059/1726476284231835/?type=3&theater Just working on getting the smokebox shape right. I think the dimensions are slightly off, but we're working on it with photos as reference. It's not supposed to be symmetrical - one side pokes out more than the other. |
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| BKirwan | May 3 2016, 01:04 PM Post #19 |
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Will , Can you send me a PM I have a question for you? Thanks Brian |
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| willkerrs | Jul 29 2016, 12:51 PM Post #20 |
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Just another small update. I know it's been a few months - Basically my modeller guy has made some substantial progress. We've found some better detailed documents on the lorry's suspension (or a similar lorry, at least). He's busy with exams and whatnot, but i'll let you know how it goes on. In other news, I was trying to get hold of some transcripts of the Diary of Colonel Bertram Portal, so that we can finally answer some questions about the early days of the Daimler-Guinness. It was up for auction for £28,000 in 2013, but was unsold. I contacted the auction house, and under the data protection act, can't give me the seller's details, but they did forward my details to him. No reply, of course. So, the Holy Grail is, essentially, never going to see the light of day. My government should step in and appropriate the diary, if you ask me. It's too valuable a source. Edited by willkerrs, Jul 29 2016, 05:09 PM.
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9:57 AM Jul 11